près la chute du régime de Saddam en 2003, l’armée a été dissoute et les anciens cadres du parti Baas ont été démis de leurs fonctions. Soudainement dépossédés du pouvoir économique et politique, beaucoup de jeunes sunnites—particulièrement dans la région très conservatrice d’Anbar—ont entendu les idées d’al-Qaeda et d’Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi et ont commencé à se dire «Yo, ces mecs ont peut-être raison.» Depuis trois ans, beaucoup de jeunes chômeurs d’Anbar se sont donc laissé endoctriner. Peu à peu, l’insurrection est devenue plus radicale et plus criminelle.
On ne peut pas rencontrer ces jeunes en les cherchant. Même en tant que journaliste irakien expérimenté et sunnite originaire de la région d’Anbar, je ne peux demander à personne de m’introduire auprès des jihadistes. Au mieux, on me rirait au nez ou on m’ignorerait; au pire, on me tuerait.
Mais en décembre 2006, ce sont les insurgés eux-mêmes qui m’ont trouvé. C’était juste avant l’aube, j’étais en voiture sur une route qui longe l’Euphrate. Tout d’un coup, une grosse BMW noire avec des vitres teintées m’a bloqué et forcé à m’arrêter. Trois jeunes hommes armés d’AK47, le visage masqué, sont sortis de la voiture en hurlant: «Montre-nous tes papiers! Montre-nous tes papiers! Sunnite ou chiite? Sunnite ou chiite?»
En Irak, c’est la réponse à cette question qui détermine si tu vas vivre ou mourir.
Je leur ai dit que j’étais sunnite et je leur ai montré ma carte d’identité, mais beaucoup de gens ont des faux papiers dans cette région. Ils ont continué à me poser des questions. «De quel quartier de Bagdad viens-tu? Qui connais-tu là-bas? Qu’est-ce que tu fais?» J’ai répondu. J’ignorais cependant qu’ils n’écoutaient pas mes réponses mais plutôt la façon dont je les prononçais.
«Ton accent est bon», a finalement conclu leur leader. «Si tu n’avais pas parlé correctement, on t’aurait tué.» Il était très tôt, et pour une raison qui m’échappe, les trois garçons ont fait une pause pour parler avec moi un moment. Leur chef a commencé à me parler tranquillement, comme à un frère. «Les chiites du sud de l’Irak se sont mis à acheter des plaques d’immatriculation d’Anbar et ils disent que le propriétaire de la voiture est sunnite. On ne se laisse pas avoir, on les coince avec leur accent de toute façon.» «Alors vous contrôlez cette zone?», ai-je demandé. Il a répondu: «Bien sûr! Nous sommes dans l’émirat de Ramadi!»
«Mais si vous contrôlez la zone, pourquoi vous êtes masqués?»
«Ça, a-t-il dit avec colère, c’est l’émirat de Ramadi.» Il s’est arrêté pour rajouter de l’effet. «Il doit être dirigé par les vrais croyants en l’honneur d’Allah et du Prophète, que la paix soit avec lui.»
Peut-être qu’il contrôlait le territoire, mais quelle taille faisait-il? Que contrôlait-il exactement? Et que signifiait «contrôler»? En fait, ces derniers mois, la situation dans l’Ouest de l’Irak est devenue totalement anarchique. Partout, des tout petits émirats—que des kids armés jusqu’aux dents déclarent être leur «fief»—se font en une nuit, une semaine ou un mois. Qui peut savoir? Moi-même, je connais l’«émirat de Ramadi», l’«émirat de Haditha» et l’«émirat de Rawa». Récemment, des gamins du petit village d’Al-Sufia ont décidé que leur bled était lui aussi un émirat. Ça serait amusant si ça n’était pas potentiellement dangereux pour beaucoup de gens.
D’Al-Qaim à Bagdad, aujourd’hui, tout le monde fait ce qu’il veut. C’est le bordel total, il y a des villes contrôlées par le gouvernement, des zones contrôlées par des jihadistes, des zones contrôlées par des tribus alliées à l’armée US, et d’autres contrôlées par des tribus qui s’opposent à la fois aux Américains et à la résistance. Les pires coins sont ceux contrôlés par les jihadistes, ces jeunes fanatiques cruels comme les trois gamins qui me tenaient la jambe à ce moment-là.
Le plus jeune me dit: «Si je vois un chiite, je le tue direct, c’est sûr.»
J’ai demandé: «Vous ne pensez pas que tuer des chiites ici pourrait provoquer des représailles de la part des milices chiites? Ce ne serait pas mieux de tuer des chiites à Bagdad?»
«Les chiites et tous les traîtres et les infidèles devraient être tué immédiatement, où qu’ils se trouvent. Je tuerais mon père s’il trahissait l’Islam!»
Depuis la mort de Zarqawi, il n’y a plus de dirigeants, plus d’ordre clair. Les jihadistes ont même tué les cheikhs qui ne voulaient pas leur donner l’argent et les armes qu’ils réclamaient. Et le résultat? Nos vies sont devenues encore plus absurdes. Il y a des rumeurs incessantes sur ce que les jihadistes pourraient interdire. Bientôt, ce sera: «Les tomates et les concombres ne sont plus tolérés dans la même salade, car les tomates sont des femelles et les concombres sont des males. Et on devra cacher le cul des chèvres parce qu’on voit leur appareil génital.» Ça a l’air ridicule, mais ce sont les rumeurs qui incarnent l’Irak aujourd’hui. Et comment être sûr que les mecs avec des guns savent que quelque chose n’est qu’une rumeur?
L’un des jihadistes a commencé à s’agiter. Pourquoi je pose autant de questions? Qui je suis? Ils commencent à s’énerver, mais grâce à Dieu, d’autres voitures sont arrivées, des voitures qui transportaient peut-être des chiites potentiels. Ils m’ont congédié, à la manière traditionnelle: «OK, cousin, fais bon voyage, que Dieu t’accompagne!»
DAUD S.
COMMENTS
Subject: re Date: Apr 07 2007 10:16:39 PM Author: Ali
when is the hidden imam gon emerge? He will deal badly with those motherfuckers i tell ya
Subject: let us see Date: Apr 03 2007 06:09:57 PM Author: mcFly
Jose? Muy bien. You have a philosophical mind. Thanks for discussing with me. I encourage you to continue studying and reading for the noble pursuit of truth.
Subject: interesting Date: Apr 03 2007 11:13:20 AM Author: R_B
Respect... You obviously have BALLS to be doing this kind of journalism.
Subject: ALL ENDS WELL THAT ROSEWELL Date: Apr 03 2007 10:27:40 AM Author: lets see.
nah i kid....good shit ! At least we made an attempt that is all one could ask. in conclusion.....the respect youv given to your ideas and all ideas was worth it. but nihilism can be heroic ...but it only leads to moral objectivity....im sure you can figure this it out....but perhaps not true moral objectivity but the semblance of one.....i think its curious that we all wish to be objective or true about all things...by looking for proof of our thought system in the things apperant around us. But i think its important to remember that soceity has never gotten it right so far.....the greeks didnt get it right ..they killed socrates because he was a heratic. But all he taught was that society got it wrong...but still we must try to get it right and that we can get it right.plus neizchte went insane ........socrates died for law. ill let you sort this out. genius means resurve control humility and strength. I think all the great philosphers even the subjectivist would be dissapionted by soceity today and as a twenty year old hispanic male raised and displaced in williamsburg......i blame noone but ignorance, my own and yours...thank you and good night. as moulder would say - "I believe" or "the truth is out there" its all around us....and is hideing from us,even though we are made for it. ironic isnt it? -Jose alexzander perez del cid
Subject: in closing Date: Apr 03 2007 02:25:56 AM Author: mcFly
let's see, we can trade email addresses or something if you want to keep debating. Part of me feels bad taking up all the room on these boards, especially since we probably need more room to discuss these things.
To wind this up, at least temporarily, I don't know if I really am a nihilist or not. Sometimes I prop up arguments just to get into debates with people. I think Nietzsche's ideas are interesting and I like discussing them with people. I certainly would not support the eradication of language, as you suggested. I believe in language. I love language. I might admit to the inherent meaninglessness of language, but I wouldn't want to get rid of it. I'm even in the process of writing a book, so of course I believe in language. I love words. I think I might have a slightly different version of nihilism rolling around in my head then you do. Mine is heroic and leads to freedom, but to be honest, I'm not totally sure it's the true classical interpretation. I guess that's something we could discuss further if you want to continue via email, or blog, or whatever. Let me know.
Subject: do you have any grey pop on? Date: Apr 02 2007 06:07:13 PM Author: lets see.
"now i wonder do you think it good for another man to be a nihilist. .do you know it to be good for all men to be nihilistic?
A group of nihilists has more power than an individual. Yes, why not? Nihilism for all. It won't ever happen though, so no need to worry. Humans are desperate to believe"
A nihilist has no power, really deconstructivism.....thats whats up in philosophy today. To eradicate any semblance of order means the iradication of language..because language imposes order where there is none...no true connection between subject and object. Now how do you defin the N word?
no truth?
no god?
no meaning?
no purpose?
no rules?
ur right im getting tedious.
Subject: on the structure of my questions Date: Apr 02 2007 06:00:07 PM Author: Lets see.
I know they seem to be spreading all the way around, and yes at first it was a big bulb a core that we started from and know theirs little linear seemingly linear paths and currents......what im trying to do is get a grasp of who you are as a person.....and to get the arguments agianst Objective Morality from you and to refute them. Im also branching out into differnet questions , beacuse like we started from a core... i think hopefully we will end at a core. because all this i feel ties to a core argument...what im trying to do is get to the core argument...but perhaps your right im takeing my sweet little time......but think of it as an organic process.
if ur feeling apathetic or bored well................
Subject: muslim? Date: Mar 30 2007 01:41:14 AM Author: mcFly
lets see, I was also wondering if by any chance you are a muslim? I realize that I started off this board by defaming Islam, and perhaps arroused the interest of a representative of the religion. Possibly even a muslim in Iraq? A lot of your slang is pretty American, but some of your arguments are structured in a way that seems a little offshore. Most of the Americans I've known in my life are too apathetic or too uneducated to have discussions like this. One of the impressive aspects of Islamic culture is the highly educated nature of many of the members of the society. I was just curious, where are you from, if you don't mind?
Subject: Martha Stewart cares about you Date: Mar 30 2007 12:12:29 AM Author: mcFly
Subject: this discussion is becoming a rhizome Date: Mar 29 2007 11:51:44 PM Author: mcFly
now i wonder do you think it good for another man to be a nihilist. .do you know it to be good for all men to be nihilistic?
A group of nihilists has more power than an individual. Yes, why not? Nihilism for all. It won't ever happen though, so no need to worry. Humans are desperate to believe.
I want to know your answers to both of these questions:
that person who, explains it best and understands objective morality and philosophy best, that person who embodies it and knows it?
or are you asking me who is that person that sets the moral trends in america? Who is the "authority" that all people follow?
I'm taking names! GO!
Subject: dog on skateboard, show me the way Date: Mar 29 2007 11:45:36 PM Author: mcFly
lets see, I think you and I could debate for hours and we would both probably enjoy it
"p.s. As I type this there is a video on the television of a dog riding a skateboard..."
This was presented as an object of absurdity, certainly, as much from me to you, as it was from NBC to the rest of the world, but I brought it up in juxtaposition with my question about moral authority as a wry suggestion that possibly, in America, we may be dealing with a dog riding a skateboard!
Subject: but dogs are fucking awesome! Date: Mar 29 2007 09:29:03 PM Author: lets see.
"p.s. As I type this there is a video on the television of a dog riding a skateboard and a large crowd of people cheering with approval and roaring with laughter."--I wonder does this scene of lax and happiness make you despair knowing that people are dying for our "freedom" in iraq.
that those in that image seem so carefree..and unaware.What about this image at the time of typeing makes it worth noteing...was it the seriousness of our subject matter?
this image seems almost seems sad in your message or absurd...do you find sadness in the absurdity of it. And if so...why? i think its strange that a nihilist feels sadness in the face of the absurdity which grants him the very freedom that akes his life worth lliveing. really all you have to do is look away but you dont , all you have to do is stop writeing to me back and forth and you dont.....your choseing to notice when it is just as easy and perhaps (as true for you , to not care) but yet you do.
by the way good shit man. im fuckin stoked that you know what you know.
Subject: on who the moral authority in america is Date: Mar 29 2007 09:10:39 PM Author: lets see.
in this question do you wish for me to give you the answer as to who it is that can and does expertly pronounce truth and morality in a scholastic yet practical way...that person who, explains it best and understands objective morality and philosophy best, that person who embodies it and knows it?
or are you asking me who is that person that sets the moral trends in america? Who is the "authority" that all people follow?
Who is the trendsetter.....your question can be seen both ways though im aware of your intent...i thnk its curious that in your choice of words it could be either one? so which one?
Subject: true..you are free Date: Mar 29 2007 08:58:47 PM Author: lets see.
free to create and free from it, free to love free to not love, free to judge and free to never judge, free to kill and free to never kill, free to murder and free to never murder, free to war and from it, it goes both ways.......each is equally valid.
But what is freedom, and if nihilism is good then what is the good? to a nihlist death is as good as life, or it is equal,it is also equal for a man to scratch his beard as it is for him to save the world.
now i wonder do you think it good for another man to be a nihilist..do you know it to be good for all men to be nihilistic? If you have a child would you teach it to be nihilistic to know no rules....is it good, yes it is liberateing but it also is suffocateing ....im glad that you find strenght in truth...that only proves to me that you are a moral man....but so does the muslim,,,so does the christian...so does everyone.
Do you think it tollerable and or logical for a muslims "truth" to be equal to Yours?
"Maybe this is more of a reflection of my world than the world at large,":when you said this you hit it on the mark---you know nihilism is not the way....but yet it seems easier for you to fall into it, this liberateing horror makes life bearable....free but i argue that freedom in chaos is no freedom at all.
Subject: the empowered nihilist Date: Mar 29 2007 01:13:36 PM Author: mcFly
We all have moments of despair. This can effect a nihilistic response, but I do think that nihilism is empowering as well, as you suggested. I agree with that. It does give a person courage in a sense, the courage to face massive efforts of deception, like military propaganda, or other glorified distortions like class systems, racial or ethnic superiority, or the the threat of going to hell when one dies.
To me, what is beautiful about nihilism is that an empowered nihilist is impossible to control. If we can agree that all forms of social control begin by suggesting action towards a higher good, the nihilist cannot be manipulated by this assertion, because he or she does not believe in it. This might lead to forms of alienation, but can also be very liberating. Nihilism can be used as a shield against those who want to manipulate you by telling you what to believe. When you reject their beliefs, you are free from their control. You've shattered their bondage of thought. You are free.
Subject: dogs are fuckin cute, thats true. Date: Mar 29 2007 10:04:54 AM Author: lets see
sometimes i despair too, yes thats true but nilhisim is soppused to give you courage...thats how niezthce intended it.to confront the horror of truth....and fight agianst it..to build up what is impposable and to make it beautiful...after all he thought that art not philosophy was the true nature of man.
Subject: the moral authority Date: Mar 28 2007 10:54:03 PM Author: mcFly
Maybe this is more of a reflection of my world than the world at large, but actually, "lets see," you are the most morally conscious person I've heard speak in a long time, which is why I wanted to draw you out on this message board. Now I have a question for you:
Who do you consider to be the moral authority in American culture currently? You can give one name or many names of individuals or organizations, I'm just curious what you think...
p.s. As I type this there is a video on the television of a dog riding a skateboard and a large crowd of people cheering with approval and roaring with laughter.
"tell me mcfly what you think it* is and why you think it is immposable for man to act in such a manner." (* morality)
I guess I want to say that I don't think it's impossible for human beings to commit moral actions, it's just that personally I've lost a lot of faith in human goodness. It's not that I don't believe it's possible, it's just that I stopped seeing much of it around me.
The case of Iraq, for me, is no exception. In direct defiance of international law, the United States of America used it's terribly powerful military to pre-emptively declare war on a sovereign state and invaded, bombed, destroyed, several towns and peoples, causing damage and consequences that still remain untold. Why should I believe in a higher moral order when my country obviously does not?
Subject: the path to nihilism Date: Mar 28 2007 10:37:16 PM Author: mcFly
lets see, You're right that I can't really judge the war as wrong or false if I am a true nihilist, because to assume something is wrong is to assume that it could be corrected somehow.
I've recently asked myself when I lost faith in Western Civilization, and I think the moment it started was when at the age of 16 I was in the library doing a research project and I first learned about the phenomenon of acid rain. This may have been my first moment of truly deep despair for the world and when I began to lose faith in humanity. This possibly was my first step towards nihilism.
From there it was pretty much all downhill as I began learning about other attrocities of the world such as global warming, rapid unchecked deforestation, child pornography, nuclear war, Chernobyl, dead zones in the oceans, genocide, crack, HIV AIDS, cancer, state-sponsored torture, reality television etc. Once a person is immersed in this kind of observation, I think it's only a matter of time before this person may turn to nihilism.
Subject: Damn. Date: Mar 27 2007 08:18:51 PM Author: lets see
aw fuck i fucked up the bottom part( the part below this) up too....so tired. sorry hope its clear enough
Subject: i didnt express this part right Date: Mar 27 2007 08:16:30 PM Author: lets see
Both sides are acting logical..they are acting under the influence of their societys understanding of reasons to go to war. they are acting within the confines of their logic not true logic.
This however does not mean that they are acting for the sake of truth....for you, Nieztche and the sophist truth does not exist....thus when you say both sides are wrong you are well... wrong because to the Niezcheian both sides just are. and who ever wins is then viewed as "right" but this is just an illusion, a false hood this is "only true for the neizchian i might add and really to say that this is true for niezchte would be a lie and to say that that was a lie would be a lie etc etc etc. this is "true" at least for the nieztchian
Subject: oh and one other thing Date: Mar 27 2007 08:12:25 PM Author: lets see
"humans areimpulsive creatures in my opinion. There really is no hope to contain them within paradigms of logic as far as I can tell" you somewhat
Both sides are acting logical..they are acting under the influence of their societys understanding of reasons to go to war.
This however does not mean that they are acting for the sake of truth....for you, Nieztche and the sophist truth does not exist....thus when you say both sides are wrong you are well... wrong because to the Niezcheian both sides just are. and who ever wins is then viewed as "right" but this is just an illusion, a false hood.
the fact that you say that our side is more morally good then the other is a very complex statement....
and to say that no human can abide by logical laws , how is it then that you and i can communicate, verbally, intelligently , and well truthfully.....how is it that a man can read or a man can write?
Subject: What is morality? Date: Mar 27 2007 08:02:21 PM Author: lets see
tell me mcfly what you think it is and why you think it is immposable for man to act in such a manner.
Subject: youv just given me that challenge....... Date: Mar 27 2007 08:00:52 PM Author: lets see
......
Our veiws on human nature color our perception of humanity...to you man is an absurd irrational cumpulsive being or in the socratic sense an animal. Your favorite philospher believed man was a means between the chaos and absurdity of the nothingness below him( ie nature, animals, rocks etc.) and the chaos and absurdity above him (the divine) hence" god is dead" his thoughts as i understand them are not new infact he he just took the sophist arguments one step further..."man as the measure of all things" this words were uttered by theatets leader of sophists , the sophist saw man as the measure of all things , the indivdual man, not the collective, thus what was right for one was not right for another..sounds like modern soceity no? thats why good and evil are subjective , created by us thus we are beyond them.
there is a lineage to your thoughts..there is lineage to mine,
The challenge you have given me is to attempt to show you that moral action, that is action that can be called good, is possiable and that it is infact imposed on man by the contingencys of our natural physical existence to act moral.
i have to prove to you that one action can be deemed better than the other, one action can be called good, in the classical sense and one can be called evil. Not because we pay for it in hell or heaven..no never but because it is necessary for man...just as it is for animals to feed on animals....
Subject: dialectics Date: Mar 27 2007 05:59:41 PM Author: mcFly
But you've piqued my interest. I haven't seriously tried to debate moral philosophy with anyone for a long time, so now I want to try and conceive an argument that will give you a challenge. What approach should I take, any ideas?
Subject: dialectics! Date: Mar 27 2007 05:47:01 PM Author: mcFly
"lets see," I'm not trying to refute you because I basically agree with your conclusion that both sides are wrong, or "worng," as you so cleverly flavored it. I think fanatical muslims are operating in a pre-enlightenment mindset and their assumptions are therefore false in the eyes of a post-enlightenment society. The U.S. claims to be acting in the name of the protection of it's citizens, and other citizens of the world, therefore their actions may be considered moral and good, however their actions under this guise have ended up killing so many people that it begins to potentially prove their assumptions false as well. In this sense, both sides could be proven wrong or false. I stopped thinking about right and wrong a long time ago when I went "beyond good and evil," in the Nietzschean sense, so I have little advice about how to correct this situation, or even why it happened in the first place! I'm sure we could easily argue that G.W. felt he had to compete for his mother's attention in order to survive against his father and brothers. What a better way to defeat his father in the Oedipal sense then by commanding an army to finish the enemy his father could never conquer! Is it possible? All I can say is that I understand insanity and irrationality. Human beings are violent, contradictory, and impulsive creatures in my opinion. There really is no hope to contain them within paradigms of logic as far as I can tell.
Subject: poor very poor Date: Mar 27 2007 04:27:02 PM Author: lets see
U didnt prove me wrong at all ...i was expecting better than some wit and mindless pop culture refrences..pascal..oprah please so sluggish...try harder im not yet offended.
Subject: shit.. Date: Mar 27 2007 03:55:43 PM Author: lets see
...i think it can be done.
Subject: the pursuit of Objective Morality Date: Mar 27 2007 03:18:19 PM Author: mcFly
"let's see," the Objective Moralist, weighs in on Iraq, thank you for sharing that with us. Okay class, any questions? I'd like the first four of you to divide up about 60 or so pages of Kreeft, and bring back written or oral reports in length of about 5 minutes in summary. Then maybe we'll move on to Aquinas and Pascal next week. Here's an extra credit assignment: Prove or disprove Orpah Winfrey as a moral philosopher in contemporary American culture, and contrast her critique with that of Ty Pennington, host of the weekly television series "Extreme Makover: Home Edition." Then please correlate your theses with the American led occupation of Iraq. I'll be waiting for your responses in my third level basement where I keep a wind-up radio, a three year supply of canned food, and enough ammunition to put us all out of our misery when the shit hits the fan. Dismissed.
Subject: face Date: Mar 27 2007 11:58:19 AM Author: shit
da da da ba ba ba ba da da da bababababa
fuck!
Subject: dont mean to be overbearing Date: Mar 26 2007 03:58:16 PM Author: lets see
if you disagree with my flights of "fantasy" let me know and prove me wrong..because then i can be free of my own ignorance, and all peole want is freedom, security and happiness and we must help each other acheive this........
Subject: logical limb Date: Mar 26 2007 03:49:29 PM Author: lets see
if we can establish purley social aid...and show sacrifice of mind not blood ..of possesions not bullets then we can show the world that we are compassionate and if the islamist attack these purley peaceful establishments......they desrve to be destroyed then and only then..because they fly in the face of truth of peace of reason.....we have as a nation of millions acted much like the islamist....our military history has proven this. Guatemala, bay of pigs, veitnam....if we can show other nations that we are there not because of possesions and oil but because of freedom.......then and only then would we be right....still this is far to complex...far to surreal for a modern everyday american to come to terms with......that he is not free and that he is wrong. that his nation acts very much like the islamist terrorist, that we expect total control too total obediance, and we would be right to expect this if we understood the true nature of freedom, truth , justice right , wrong, but we dont.
all i have said seems even surreal to me...that a modern man can act this way..but we do here and their.....when we act for kindness and compassion..its hard, this iam sure of, that is all i have really learned about being a MAN or a WOMEN that it is hard to be free but not impossable.
read socrates , or if you want this in a nutshell read Peter Kreefts "A Refutation of Moral RElativism" its not as hard as it sounds...and
Subject: cont. Date: Mar 26 2007 03:33:56 PM Author: lets see
who is right....not the americans not the islamist.
then who? the americans are close they provide a un parllel freedom both in economic situations and in educative systems...but this can be decieving we are taught to consume...not to love nor understand not to question...not to know truth to consume "laize fair", we say the islamist dont allow religious freedom , neither does the states our freedom is tied to posseions thats why we are there for oil...their freedom is tied to survival.....their needs out weigh ours......this is truth...but we as citezens are wrong to we do not resist properly....rember the social contract and Charles I....we are wrong they are wrong.
the only proper thing to do is set up , and im going out a on a logical limb here, a support group for iraqs to send to the neighbor heads decimated by our ignorance and thiers.....medicine food, compassion letters....etc then we could be seen as liberators and compassionate understanding and then and only then could we be right.....they send death and destruction and religiuos ignorance we send , as us as citezens we send money...not soldiers we establish citezen projects and establishments both here and there for the liberation of iraq we send books , we send food, aid , support both emotional and physical. we send our hearts and souls not only to the soldiers but to the people of iraq.
Subject: lets see cont Date: Mar 26 2007 03:21:20 PM Author: cont.
the only side that is good or correct is those who act...in accordance with human reason, human reason has led us to the conclusion that all men are equal , because all men contain Intellect<or the ability to understand things as they are and free will the ability to think what we like or do as we like, regardless of race...of course both intellect and reason are affected by education and culture. also sourrondings a slave is not free to act as he wishes , but he is free to think as he wishes this is where human freedom abides in the thoughts and hearts of men.....both sides are infact illogical and deviod of a proper understanding of reason and truth...so with this in mind both are utterly and completly wrong. this is a hard pill to swallow.
Subject: this is complex yet simple a paradox Date: Mar 26 2007 03:20:51 PM Author: lets see
who is in the right?
in a objective moral system, there is a metaphysical good: this is any item, physical emotional etc..which brings about happiness. then their is the bonum honstum, or the true good. which is different form the metaphysical good, it is a good which is intact with human nature and reason. war is a metaphysical good for the victor....and bad for the enemy. diplomacy would be the Bonum honestum..the true good
both sides are worng..but lets say one side is more just than the other...unfortantley it is hard to decide which one..if anything the americans would be it..but because of the hipocrisy and the horrible ill prepared war and post war....we are not it. though the islamist have valid pionts...truth god family respect....but so they share this in common with us americans.........
Subject: the neglect of Objective Morality Date: Mar 26 2007 04:02:05 AM Author: mcFly
"let's see," Can you discuss more the concept of Objective Moral corectness in this context? you say that this war is not about being "right," or "wrong," but it is about who is "stronger," you say:
"this war comes down to the will of the powerful vs the will of the weak..who is stronger......not who is right"
I think this is really an interesting way of describing it, and even very refreshing, contrasted with the confusing barrage of reports coming at us from multiple media sources at this time. You've really cut to the essence of this war here in a deep philosophical sense. What I want to know however, is if you think there is a side to this war that is "right?" You've said that neither side is on the "right," side, or "both are wrong," and I think I agree with that (as presumptuous as it may be), but then, it's confusing, what is the "right," side in an Objective Moral sense? I'm curious to hear what you have to say on this...
Subject: hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Date: Mar 25 2007 09:37:32 PM Author: lets see
what is the situation in iraq it is a clash of the uneducated vs, the uneducated, of a aimless society vs a destructive soceity.of a worng vs a worng............we consume, we destroy , we kill as diplomacy they do the same.....but why?
what is involved in this war is the search for happiness for truth..one side veiws happiness and truth in the acusition of material goods, the other in the enforcment of the rules of god......
we as a nation misunderstand happiness, what it is and what brings it. they as the enemy missunderstand truth and as we know truth brings us happiness..so both are wrong, both are illogical and destructive ....essentially this war comes down to the will of the powerful vs the will of the weak..who is stronger......not who is right.though both are actually fighting for the imposition if thier "truth" on the world
both nations wish to be happy but both nations must understand how it is we as people as humanbeings as things which seek to be happy must acquire it.
Subject: splooge Date: Mar 22 2007 07:26:42 PM Author: didge
keep it realz, cudgies-letz git fawked up on coke joints and ecstasy wine...and the rest you muddafuckas, learn how to spell! your (admittedly very interesting) ideas would be much easier to digest if you had some sense of grammatical decorum!
Subject: parking lot philosophy Date: Mar 22 2007 05:25:59 PM Author: mcFly
"lets see," Would you care to patronize the emirate of 7-11 with me? I hear he's made affordable flavored ice and dried meats. We could split some Turkey Jerkey and discuss the true nature of things. I think I might need your input in the future.
Subject: know Date: Mar 22 2007 04:11:37 PM Author: know
the history of your thoughts cus trust me non and i mean non are knew,
Subject: for the dim Date: Mar 22 2007 04:09:58 PM Author: lets see
islam , is ockham or power over truth-"killing is wrong beacuse god says so not because it is wrong"-ockham
christians , its truth over power" killing is wrong because god knows killing is wrong" -. aquinas
US of A its" theres no truth," thuse power dominates truth, thats every nihilst favorite german philospher speaking, Neitzche." killing is not wrong it is only considered wrong if those who can assert power consider it so" his famous work beyond good and evil-skepticism,
me im an objective moralist, not that expect any body here to know what that is, but its simple americans dont really give a fuck, thats why we are not riotingt hank locke and hume but have we forgot adam smith yep we have
, islam is a fuckin religion which made up its mind during the midevil ages , thus no enlightenment, no skepticism
but US of A, or at least the" intellectuals" are all ironists , relativist bure enlightenment pure skeptics .......
one side is relativist as to acusition of truth, the other is relativist on that they follow will not intellect.
both soceitys are relativistic one to the whim of god the other to the whim of the Empericist
human are all the same " all actions are directed towards happiness" aristotle, plato , socra fucking tes, so its easy really ......
Subject: asd Date: Mar 22 2007 12:53:51 PM Author: asd
These guys are just dirty, lowlife gangsters, nothing more, nothing less. they need order in their lives and nothing more than shallow reasons to kill.
pathetic. wipe them the fuck off the earth.
Subject: Kill the religious Date: Mar 22 2007 12:29:28 PM Author: sinister
Fuck religion. If your mentally deranged enough to believe all that religious shit, you should be locked away in a lunatic asylum with all the other mentally unhinged.
Subject: doin' the didge Date: Mar 22 2007 02:57:00 AM Author: mcFly
oh didge, let's invade a small country together and set up a Grateful Dead nostalgia shop, you can smoke up and spange with your didge all day and I'll just be bitter and sarcastic and take pictures of people I hate with clever subtitles until we can afford to move back to New York and continue procrastinating for a living
Subject: bunker d Date: Mar 22 2007 02:22:26 AM Author: allegory
al-qaeda are fascists as much as emo kids are trotskyists? what? they have nothing to do with each other. oh yeah.
Subject: bunker d Date: Mar 22 2007 02:21:34 AM Author: debunker
first of all, for all you guys insulting islam, you know you're all guys right? and no one cares about a bunch of guys standing in a circle agreeing with each other?
but in response to "not first" up there- what the author said is a one-hundred percent realistic sober characertisation of middle east societies. when i was in iran last year, several intelligent people seriously asked, "so, i've been meaning to clear this up. is it true that no jews were killed on 9/11?" after choking on my soda, i would try to explain that, yes, there were in fact jews killed on 9/11. then they would get all quizzical and try to get me to 'prove' there were jews killed.
there are also books written by high-ranking religious authorities on what should be done if a man has carnal relations with a donkey. (the answer, by the way, is to cast out the donkey.) these sorts of ideas are like the sunblock against the scorching, mind-numbing heat of boredom, caused by unemployment, living with your mother, and watching satellite tv. the culture takes bullshit to new levels of audacity and still not being worth it.
do these two points seem to contradict themselves? well, they don't, you racist fucks. every human society in the world consists of almost entirely stupid people. even really smart people spend most of their day being stupid. the very, very, very, very few people whose existences are somehow justified, were
Subject: mcflyasspaper Date: Mar 22 2007 12:33:02 AM Author: didge
i play the music and you dance your little dance my sticky-footed friend.
yeah, but I mastered time travel, what did you ever do but try and make music by blowing into a big stick?
Subject: mcfly Date: Mar 21 2007 09:30:49 PM Author: didge
what's the i.q. level on this site? your point was my point. if you're actually involved in war, it's probably not that hilarious. now, do you need help tying your shoes?
Subject: they point the cannon at you Date: Mar 21 2007 06:03:41 PM Author: mcFly
didge, you'd be talking different if they were shooting at you
yup, death, destruction, and mutilation is super fucking hilarious. especially when it isn't happening to you. you're the type that needs a bayonet up the ass to wipe dumbass smirk off your face.
Subject: fucking hillarious Date: Mar 21 2007 11:04:31 AM Author: doc
hey, if these people have as little organizational skills as this, then fuck 'em... this shit made me laugh so hard! retards with ak-47's!! this is funnier and stupider than the gang wars we have in the states!- at least that's over crack money!! middle-eastern people are so tragically, seriously melodramatic.... this is why we need even more troops over there than we are sending... these young fratboys need jobs or prison- and valium.... somene told me once the differnece between shiite and suuni is some incredibly small detail in the translation of the koran about whether mohammed rode a cloud or a horse or some shit... but until the power vacuum post-saddam they all got along just fine- worked with, married each other, blah blah blah... but after saddam was taken down these pettty stupid people had to find a side to align themsleves on so they could fuck their neighbor over... shiite/vs. suuni worked fine.... it would be like manhattan and long island going on a genocidal civil war against each other-yeah, it's that dumb....
Subject: destabilize and plunder! Date: Mar 20 2007 11:55:39 PM Author: mcFly
yeah, there ya go herbert, now you're talking, Mad Max in Babylon, welcome to the jungle
Subject: Hot Ba'ath Date: Mar 20 2007 10:51:07 PM Author: Voiceover
What a load of shiite!
I think the craziness is fairly easy to spot here.
Subject: And the difference is? Date: Mar 20 2007 09:27:25 PM Author: Jason
We still havent explored the difference between Sunnis and Shia? I mean, I could look it up, but I shouldnt have to, dammit!
Subject: iraq Date: Mar 20 2007 09:15:02 PM Author: herbert
in fact, their incompetence is so spectacular, i'm beginning to believe the conspiracy nuts who state that the u.s. never wanted a stable iraq in the first place-what they do want is a completely destabilized middle east (except for israel of course), with all the islamic fundies tearing eachother apart, whilst the oil waits patiently to be gently sucked from the sand by a whore wrapped in the stars and stripes...
Subject: iraq Date: Mar 20 2007 09:09:47 PM Author: herbert
it has fuck-all to do with frat boys, and everything to do with the worst fucking foreign policy decision of the 2000's.
i'll say it again-the people who conceived of and executed this war had no plan for the occupation, no understanding of iraq history/culture, and were too arrogant to pay attention to those iraqis who were quite happy to have the americans and the british there-at least, in the beginning.
Subject: sheisse Date: Mar 20 2007 08:28:34 PM Author: turkish ba'ath party
sunni or shite?
Subject: great stuff Date: Mar 20 2007 12:31:14 PM Author: frankie
this is a fantastic issue! vice has been trying to get this sort of thing done for a while - with mixed results - but you've finally nailed it. nice work.
Subject: i love the world Date: Mar 20 2007 11:19:23 AM Author: taycam
man its all fucked. less world more funny.
Subject: bloody guts Date: Mar 20 2007 04:54:14 AM Author: mcFly
Nah, "hiyoooo" is right. I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm oversimplifying the situation in Iraq right now. Islam and all religion are much more complex. It's too convenient to just say, "there is no God," it's far from that simple. I'm just against violence and war, that's all. Peace man.
Subject: islam Date: Mar 19 2007 11:03:40 PM Author: hiyooooooooo
This is like some kind of post apocalyptic sci-fi novel where suddenly the government and all authority collapses and in the power vacuum, mobs of armed fratboys start taking themselves too seriously and decide to start a war against the SigmaAlphaWhatevers or Duke basketball or something and force everybody to conform to their gay-ass rituals. All that religious bull is just an excuse and a way to sound icy, like Jules in pulp fiction. These guys just wanna be badasses.
These comments suck
Subject: Fundamentalism, Zionism, Imperialism Date: Mar 19 2007 10:07:27 PM Author: Michael
Jewish Zionism, American Imperialism, and Islamic Fundamentalism are all bad.
Subject: it's easy Date: Mar 19 2007 07:07:25 PM Author: G
Shiites have beards
Sunnis have mustaches
Subject: Vice is trash Date: Mar 19 2007 06:41:24 PM Author: Ali
please refrain from reporting anything about IRAQ in the future, stick to do's and dont's.
Subject: blah blah islam Date: Mar 19 2007 06:29:40 PM Author: chris
Hey, remember who blew up the Oklahoma City federal building and killed all those kids? That crazy Muslim motherfucker? Osama what's his name? Oh wait, it was Timothy McVeigh, a right-wing Christian separatist, you fucking morons.
Subject: atheist against war Date: Mar 19 2007 06:23:40 PM Author: mcFly
Okay, here's my one problem with Islam, pure and simple. THERE IS NO GOD. I know this is hard for most of the people on the planet to cope with. It's so difficult in fact that most people would rather go blow up a hotel, nightclub, crowded market, or bus rather than accept the fact that their world view is based on a false assumption. If people want to gather in public places and non-violently worship their imaginary deities, that's fine, but when they turn these beliefs into aggressive violence, then we have another problem. For this reason I say FUCK ISLAM! Yes, people need to stop killing each other over their stupid religions, the U.S. included.
Subject: to second that Date: Mar 19 2007 05:14:53 PM Author: MT
fuck islam? fuck imperialism, fuck america, and fuck zionism.
america created the shitty situation that exists in Iraq now. I'm sure life under Sadaam probably sucked, but not nearly as much this.
and israel might be the only country in the world that exhibits more indiscriminate blood lust than the U.S.
My tax dollars have killed 655,000 Iraqis and you're condoning this? I know I'd sleep better w/out this shit on my conscience.
Can't wait to emigrate, really.
Subject: boink Date: Mar 19 2007 05:03:49 PM Author: ghb
another photo from the AP
talk about journalism!!
i might as well start going to usatoday.com
Subject: sandynigga Date: Mar 19 2007 05:02:31 PM Author: jihad
just google the name and read a few of the articles posted for iraq....proves this is 100% fake....and why list the source of the content but provide a false name?? vice isn't reputable?? that's a surprise
I'm not pro-war and I respect Islam. Seriously, I've had muslim friends before, they're good people. The tone of the religion is serious, kind, gentle, deep, intelligent, and wise. I'm not against Islam, but you have to admit that some of these extremists are scary fascists. I don't know if bombing them is the solution but forgive me if I don't hate on them just a little bit because some of them kind of fucking deserve it.
Subject: um, okay Date: Mar 19 2007 04:44:27 PM Author: herbert
let me get this straight-the u.s. invades a sovereign country with very little international support, not enough troops, no understanding of iraqi/muslim culture, and no plan for the period after the laughable announcement of 'mission accomplished'-and your response is to blame islam? now don't get me wrong, i'm one of those people who belong to no faith, so i'm certainly not here to defend islam, but-how fucking stupid, ignorant, etc etc can you be?
how's this? fuck you, you stupid fucking prick? why don't you go suck dubya's dick a little more?
Subject: second that Date: Mar 19 2007 03:52:27 PM Author: second that
fuck islam. go usa
today israel got involved.
this is where it starts.
Subject: AK-fortystupid Date: Mar 19 2007 03:50:20 PM Author: mcFly
Fucking muslims, usually I'm having to ridicule impulsive, intolerant, rush to violence, farmboy from Kansas types, but now it seems that these muslim hicks are even worse. Why do any of you think the world is going to be a better place if you go around shooting people all the time? How can people be so stupid? I thought Islam was a religion of peace. Or is this just more pro-war propaganda somehow being cleverly placed in Vice magazine in some attempt by the State Dept to target the youth market? You all fucking suck, everyone of you. Go to hell, everyone.
Subject: second Date: Mar 19 2007 03:24:40 PM Author: not first
"Soon enough it will be, "Tomatoes and cucumbers are no longer tolerated in one salad, since tomatoes are female and cucumbers are male. And goats should have their butts covered, since they expose their genitals.""
Cool, this article was almost believable
Subject: second Date: Mar 19 2007 03:22:09 PM Author: mcFly
fuck islam
second
Flesh-colored tights are bad to begin with, but when you subtract the skirt from the equation and add in about 30 hours of straight partying it makes it look like you've smeared your whole body in anti-erection cream. Comments/Enlarge See all
If your kids have moved out and your wife no longer gives a shit what you have to say it’s time to tell them all to fuck off and start a new life as a really slutty Fleetwood Mac groupie with venereal warts.
près la chute du régime de Saddam en 2003, l’armée a été dissoute et les anciens cadres du parti Baas ont été démis de leurs fonctions. Soudainement dépossédés du pouvoir économique et politique, beaucoup de jeunes sunnites—particulièrement dans la région très conservatrice d’Anbar—ont entendu les idées d’al-Qaeda et d’Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi et ont commencé à se dire «Yo, ces mecs ont peut-être raison.» Depuis trois ans, beaucoup de jeunes chômeurs d’Anbar se sont donc laissé endoctriner. Peu à peu, l’insurrection est devenue plus radicale et plus criminelle.
